BMH Editor's Blog

I realize that the Grace Brethren are going through a time of "enlightenment " and I know what I have to say will label me as one who is of the old and not the new church, but for the life of me, I cannot see where bringing in a man who claims he is not a believer, to enlighten our people, is what God would have us to do, regardless of his good works.
At the MTV lifetime award ceremony, the host introducing he and his band said, "They smoke,drink, use bad language, but have done more to cancel the debt in the third world countries then all the politicians combined."
Maybe so, but is this what we want our young people to model their lives after ?
 

There does seem to be a stunning lack of discretion in some quarters.
 

If anyone would like to directly discuss this, or anything we do at Hope Community Church, feel free to contact me personally at davep@gethope.net

Dave Patchin
Executive Pastor
Hope Community Church
 

As someone who has grown up in the Fellowship and is thankful for the heritage that the Grace Brethren movement represents, I applaud and commend the Hope Community Church's efforts to be salt and light in Raleigh N.C. Praying for your continued success in your faithfulness in building the Kingdom.

Steve Oroszi
Dayton, Ohio.
 

Bono does claim to be a believer and has many times and in many forums argued the superiority of Christ and grace over law and Karma. By the way, I occasionally smoke, drink and use bad language too.
Nate Dunlevy
 

Ok, forget the smoking, drinking, & bad language. I know christians who occasionally do all three. But I know none who routinely use the "F" word. Bono does. Yes, Bono's life speaks volumes. If his lifestyle is one which causes one to even question his true spirituality, can it be one that is glorifying God? One only has to go back to the last presidential election where Bono openly and actively supported candidates who support so many things the church and true believers can't. How can a true christian raise millions of dollars for candidates who support things that erode our christian values and morals..even if they also support Bono's pet causes. Does the end justify the means? I think not. Silverfox, I am with you on this one.
Also from Dayton
 

7Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God. 8And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am the LORD which sanctify you. Leviticus 20:7 & 8
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. I Peter 1: 13-16
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.


Psalm 1

1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. 2But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. 3And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. 5Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. 6For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.
 

"I occasionally smoke, drink and use bad language too." - is that a boast or a public confession of sin?

I believe that I would rather hear from God then Bono, though I realize that God will probably not draw as large a crowd ;-)
 

Enough already with the childish comments, my brothers! Bono confesses his trust in Jesus Christ for his salvation. This information is easily accessible for one who cares to find it out. Since that is the case, it is your obligation to love your brother, not tear him down. Let's put our actions where our theology is. If someone outside the faith read these comments, I don't think they'd like much to do with the God we say we represent. Love and peace!!
 

Thanks for that last comment. I have been reading this and trying to think about what I might want to say. I was raised Grace Brethren and I sometimes struggle with how things are done...but my heart is that people would be lead to Jesus Christ. To accept him as their Lord and Savior and then work out their own faith. I don't agree with everything Bono might say or do, but I do know this...if one person comes to that service and professes Jesus as their Savior...All heaven will be rejoicing. Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father except through me. That is the truth...one way to salvation, but perhaps many ways for us to share our faith and get the word out. I commend Raleigh for daring to think outside the box and I agree instead of tearing everyone down, lets build them up. Christians fighting and disagreeing is exactly what drives unbelievers away from the faith.
 

When I said that I also occasionally drink, smoke and use bad language, I was merely commenting on the irony of a brother caring waaaay more about the petty issues (of which, only the bad language is ACTUALLY a sin) than on the fact that this man has done massive amounts to help the poor and starving. Frankly, it's embarassing that someone would read that quote and see it as a strike against anyone. If the worst thing someone can say about you is that you use bad language and the best thing is that you have done more than any man alive to help the poor, I think you are doing ok. So I ask you brothers who don't smoke and drink and curse and support right wing Republicans and tax cuts for the rich, what do you do for the poorest and most needy of our brothers? What have you personally done for the starving in Africa? Are you spending yourself on behalf of the widow, the orphan, and the alien? Keep ripping Bono; he'll keep serving the poor. Frankly, I think God will side with those who help naked and hungry and be furious with those who while they weren't winebibbers and gluttons, didn't lift a finger to ease the burdens of their fellow men. I read that somewhere once... Frankly, I enjoy listening to Bono talk and sing about God. And I think God has plenty to say about Bono and men who give themselves to helping the poor. As I walked through a slum in Buenos Aires last night after reading the Bible with a man who had no food in his refrigerator, I sang a U2 song written by Bono aloud in praise to the great God of poor and defensless. The Kingdom belongs to such as these.
Ez 16:49
Nate Dunlevy
ndunlevy@gbim.org
 

The fact of the matter is that Bono carries a lot of baggage with him and it's not "childish" to point that out.

Once again, it seems that it is impossible to have a discussion about these issues with a large segment of the church because any standard will be considered unloving.
 

To "youguysarescaringme": I did do a google search and haven't been able to come up with anything. I did read the lyrics of one of the songs that speaks of grace which a person could certainly read into it a Christian theme, but others have said they understood it to be a love song. I would be interested in any links that you have that in which Bono gives a clear statement of his understanding of salvation - sinner in need of a Savior, and trusting in Christ alone for salvation (not good works, baptism, church membership). Obviously, doesn't have to be word for word, but at least a clear Biblical understanding of salvation. There are many who claim to be saved by grace, but add works of some kind. Certainly a care for the world and its needs is important, but it obviously doesn't make us right with God.

Thanks for the help - "Searching"
 

Here is an idea for some of our sanctimonious friends who appear to be getting their Pharisee clothes all neatly pressed to devour Bono and Hope Community Church:

1) Take a deep breath.
2) Attend this event or one like it. (church leaders from around the country that attended the WCA Leadership Summit were able to order a copy)
3) Pray that Bono's convictions, leadership, and partnership with churches will continue to help save thousands of AIDS infected children (God's children) around the world.

In this very interview, Bono said, "I never had a problem with Christ...I had problems with some Christians." (I can see why, Bono)

Bono also said, "We can grasp atonement...but not grace. But I'm much more interested in grace because I'm relying on it."

Hmmm. Grace. Mercy. Reaching a hurting world.
 

Hey "searching,"
Happy to help. It was the first entry on my google. Although, I should have made you do the hard work, if you really wanted to know! :) Hope this makes you rejoice. Love and peace!

http://www.worldmag.com/articles/10892
 

Five comments...

1. Hope Community Church loves Jesus. Pastor Mike Lee is a wonderful pastor and an inspiration to me as I begin serving as a pastor. Whatever you might think of this church's methods (personally I love them), can't we at least begin by recognizing that this church is trying to be both relevant and faithful? Can't we begin by affirming each other and asking questions rather than throwing pot shots?

2. Tone is so important in these conversations. When we come across as arrogant, judgmental or closed-minded, we'll stir up angry responses rather than helpful dialogue. We throw the word "love" around so easily in our churches. To both sides, let's infuse that love into our conversations.

3. For those who want to take a serious look at this issue, let me refer you to "Walk On: The Spiritual Journey of U2" by Steve Stockman. This book is available on amazon.com for less than $12. A youth pastor friend referred me to this book, and even though I was only able to read the first chapter, I want to finish it and I think it would be helpful to this discussion. At least we would be going to the source.

4. I think this lyric expresses U2 well.
"Jesus can you find the time to throw a drowning man a line? Peace on earth."
Maybe their message is murky and symbolic, but it is present.

5. Jesus said that prostitutes and tax collectors would enter the Kingdom of heaven before the moral people of his day. He said we would be judged on whether we handed out cups of cold water or visited people in prison. He challenged us to give away our stuff, consider others as more important and always choose love, especially when it comes to the sick, the marginalized and the poor. Jesus held in perfect balance the tension of whether the gospel was about personal morality or social justice. He proved to us that it can't be one or the other. It must be both. Our faith tradition typically errs on the side of personal morality. Obviously Bono would err on the side of social justice. Thankfully, God's grace and his kingdom is big enough for us all. And maybe Bono can teach us a thing or two along the way.
 

WOW...I am amazed that as long as I have been reading this blog, this is the most discussion I have ever seen. Dale, thanks for your well-written comments.
This is just what Satan delights in, dividing the church. We live in an ever-changing culture. This does not mean our message changes, Jesus is still the only way to the Father..but our methods may and must change. I was raised very conservatively in the Grace Brethren Church...but as I get older and I see the world around me, my heart longs to use a variety of methods with one outcome...seeing people come to put their faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ... Let's open our eyes...the fields are white with harvest...and if it takes Bono to help us go out into the fields then let's run.
 

Wherever you find yourself standing on this issue, please keep us in your prayers. It was never our intention to be divisive.

Mike Lee
Hope Community Church
Mikel@gethope.net
 

I remain saddened and amazed that there continues to be such a lack of Christ honoring love toward the brethren amongst the Brethren. All the sanctimonious posturing by those who hide behind their curtains of anonymity, all the while hurling their dispersions and hateful, ugly judgments at other brothers and sisters in Christ, should first look at the "baggage" they in fact carry themselves. And if there should be any who can truely say they are without sin, well then, they are more than welcome to cast the first stone. Until the world sees us as living out what we say we truely believe in, they will
never be able to proclaim, "See how they love each other." Grace and meacy were offered to us freely. How much more then are we to show it others. Especially those of the household of faith.

Steve Oroszi.
Dayton, Ohio.
 

I am very sad. The comments on this BONO issue have convinced me that a huge iceberg of irreconcilable differences is dead ahead for the FGBC, if we have not already hit it.

A great cultural divide is growing rapidly among us, and it should be apparent to all of us by now.

I am finding it increasingly difficult to maintain a sincere oneness of spirit with so many who devalue or sharply differ with my convictions re: ministry. We are brethren, but we are so far apart in our assessment of this particular issue.
 

I think we all would be interested in hearing what exactly is your assessment of this "issue."

By the way, the unity of spirit we pocess is a reality that is found in Christ alone. It is nothing that we manufacture or produce bu our own power, strength and wisdom.
Just a thought for your consideration.

Grace and Peace.
 

To "Youguysarescaringme" - Thanks for the link! (You will note first line of my comment I did do Google and spent some time - but probably didn't use the word order that you did, so it didn't show up first on my search). I find that World Mag has a great deal of credibility to me in their reporting so got to read the first paragraph. Now I either need to spend $5.00 to read the complete article, or find a back copy -- appreciated!

from "Searching"
 

To Mike Lee - I will be praying for your ministry on a special way on Feb 4.

Frankly, I have found the discussion to be helpful to me in my thinking through some of these things in regards to ministry.

I believe that discussion is a helpful thing if conducted in a Christ-honoring way. A couple of things that have struck me about the context of the discussion, however:

1. A few posts that argue for "grace" I don't find to be very "graceful" in tone - maybe I misunderstood -- ie., sanctimonious, Pharisee, etc. (at least we didn't get "white washed sepulchers full of dead men's bones").

2. Why is there the assumption that if a person raises a question about Bono (in this particular discussion), then they are more concerned about bad language than feeding the poor (or doing something in their own community for the needy). Why the either or statements? I doin't find those kinds of statements to be real helpful in discussion. We need to learn to discuss things intelligently and in a Christ honoring way. Iron sharpening iron doesn't mean that we all agree on issues at the beginning, in the middle, or even at the end, but we can help each other to think more broadly than when we started (no matter which side of this particular issue -- or any future issue might be).

I have been moved by this discussion to find out more about Bono. From his statements I believe that he is a confessing believer in Jesus Christ (I didn't know that before!) and rejoice in that fact. I believe that I see some things differently than when this all began (in spite of what, to me, appeared to be caustic statements).

Thanks for the forum!
 

Thanks for the discussion!

Being thinking about the concept of calling folks "Pharisees." Seems to me that the spirit of a Pharisee is that of "standing on the street corner" and proudly declaring that "my sin isn't as great as your sin." Our sin, whether it is not loving my neighbor as myself or any unwholesome word that proceeds out of my mouth, is what sent Jesus to the cross. I suspect each of us can be found possessing the spirit of a Pharisee in ourselves. Father, forgives us!

My $0.02
 

I must say, reading these posts is difficult at best. I don't believe God is being glorified here. Honestly, I didn't know much about Bono until I was directed to this site. I don't know how I feel about his having his interview broadcast at Hope Community Church. I am heart broken over the name calling that is going on. Using terms like "sanctinmonious" and "Pharisee" to describe brothers and sisters in Christ cannot be God honoring. "Yet these three remain, faith hope and love but the greatest of these is love." I was NOT raised Grace Brethren but have come to know that this fellowship is made up of people committed to God's Word. "The Bible the whole Bible and nothing but the Bible." And although there are those who, in my opinion, need to let go of legalistic views and embrace God's heart changing truths...we must remain grounded in "nothing but God's Word." there are lots of references to politics and social issues here. Please be careful NOT to take man's wisdom over God's wisdom....ever. I have begun to educate myself on Bono. He may be a great draw for unbelievers which is a good thing, but the Bible cautions us to be discerning in who we pattern our lives after. David was "a man after God's own heart." He was a great warrior and shed much blood. He committed adultry and murder. Yet, when confronted by his sin he repented and said, "I have sinned against God alone." Psalm 51. Rahab was a prostitute. but she renounced her ways and came to God. She was honored by being part of Jesus' blood line (or vice versa). In reading up on Bono, I see no remorse for his actions that do not line up with God's ways as outlined in God's Word. "There's a great freedom when you have your feet in two so called mutually exclusive worlds: The world of irony, and the world of sould, the world of flesh, and the world of spirit; The world of surface and the world of depth." ---Bono (read James 4:4) Please, people. Put away politics and rhetoric. Is Bono without fault? No. Who is? I do question him being emulated when the words he speaks are both self centered and God centered. Matthew 6:24-you cannot serve two masters. So, I still do not know how I feel about Bono's interview at Hope Community Church. I must trust in the leadership there to handle it well. Bono gives lots of money to the poor, he also does some very questionable things with his money. Does that statement make me sanctinmonious or discerning? Please consider your reply in love. Annette, Dayton
 

Coupled with the prior discussion regarding the Doug Pagitt invite, later withdrawn, to Equip '07, let me HIGHLY recommend that you attend or get the MP3 (I think Grace will make it available) of Greg Koukl's talk at Grace College on January 24. I've heard this talk and frankly, outside of a few others, I do not believe anyone lays out the problems with postmodern epistemology in more clear and practical and starker terms with Greg. Some voices like Greg are vital to the discussion and I pray that his will be a starting point for a discussion in our fellowship on this important issue.

If you cannot attend, you can download, for a very reasonable price his talk during Stand to Reason's Masters Series last winter. I heard the talk live and I cannot recommend it highly enough. STR's website is www.str.org. You can also click on radio, register and listen to one of his talks on this topic in the radio section.

I think Greg's talk will be a good starting point.

Let's have a good and free flowing discussion. It's just not helpful to have the Pharisee and childish cards trotted out so early in the discussion. The fact that someone questions the wisdom of using Bono (I've heard the interview and I think it's neutral: I don't think it does a lot to advance the gospel, but that's my take) is not a personal attack. It's a legitimate question.

And, Nate, just for the record: Bono actually praised President Bush for at last year's National Prayer Breakfast. And Bono is not without his problems. It was reported last year that U2 laid off a bunch of employees and moved some operations to another country where, guess what, taxes were lower.

The issues of politics and AIDS are very complex and just throwing money at the problem will not solve anything. Ultimately, if 6500 Africans who die of AIDS each day are spared the ravages of AIDS, there are still issues to address.
 

One more time!! Sorry, "searching." The article didn't come up in full from the link I sent. Try typing in "what Bono says about Jesus" as your Google entry. The first link should be the World Magazine article. If you click on that, it should show you the article in full. (I'm sure World Magazine will thank me for that). Sorry for taking up space BMH Editor! I know some of us have reacted a little more passionately than maybe we should have. Some things don't transalte well in written form. I'm encouraged by those who want to become more informed...even if they come to a different conclusion than I do. Love and peace!
 

Just a little follow-up on U2's moves with regard to tax planning. Here's the link:

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/frontpagepdfs/2006/14467.pdf

Telling quote: "Little or no information about U2’s global operation is in the public domain but they are known to employ some of the world’s top tax experts to enable them to maximise their income."
 

I think I see it now.....In this day and age if anyone really has sincere convictions and speaks out, he is considered a pharisee, sanctimonious, and unloving.
I guess what some would have him do is crawl up in a corner somewhere and not make any waves...Anything goes, but if you speak out, watch out, you will offend. Frankly, I'm not worried about what others may think if I feel the need to speak out....Yes, we Grace Brethren are in trouble but the reasons I am sure are not the same. Can't we still care for each other even if our differnces are great ?
 

"Nurturing Great Commission teamwork among the people and churches of the Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches by building bridges of communication."

My spirit cried as I read this blog.
Such divisive commentary should not occur between brothers. It's no wonder we are so ineffective as a "church", we set such a poor example to the "world".

If our Lord and Savoir could fellowship with harlots and publicans to save those, which are lost, I see no reason to censure Mike Lee or the leadership at Hope Community Church, for following the example of the Lord they so urgently love.

I have been a member of Hope Community for over 7 seven years. During that period I have seen Mike use contemporary medium, in unorthodox and at times controversial (case in point) ways to drive home the core message of our faith. That we are all sinners and that without the saving grace of Christ we are all lost.

I can assure you the leadership of Hope did not consider presenting this event without a great deal of prayer and discernment.

I need not defend them; the Lord himself honors their ministry, with the fruit being born. I must though close with the comment that as a Christian of 30 years, of all the pastors and churches I have had opportunity to know, I've yet to encounter any one person or "body" who mirrors Christ and His love as Mike Lee and Hope Community Church.

David Brenchley
hisheirs@bellsouth.net
 

And all Gods children said.................
Amen & Amen!

Well stated brother Dave.
 

I believe the key to having this conversation, as Bono himself aptly put in the quote above is grace, remembering the the size of the debt paid by Christ on our behalf out of the kindness and mercy of God. Because of the payment of that debt, and our gratitude for it we should be treating others, believers, non-believers, Bono, the church in Raleigh with that same kindness as mercy.

Remember God loves and forgives the person who trusts Christ for salvation and supports Bono as much as God loves the person who trusts Christ and is skeptical or denounces Bono as much as God loves Bono as a person who has professed his trust in Christ (check out the new book U2 by U2 a huge book of just them talking about their life, or Walk On, The Spiritual Jouney of U2)

We have to show grace for people who's expression of their christianity is more unorthodox (expression wise or maybe even theologically) than ours, trusting that even though we may not be comfortable with how they are expressing their Christianity that we can trust that he who began a good work in them will be faithful to complete it.

On the flip side those who have unorthodox approaches to Christianity have to have grace for those who they might see as "judgmental" or "pharsaic", understanding the exact same thing, that as a person who has placed their trust in Christ both people are in the process of being conformed to the image of Christ. The key word there is process. What seems to be difficult for all of us is accepting that your process may look different from mine. That the things God is growing, changing, purging in your life will be on a different timetable from what's going on in mine. Granted they are all ruled by the same God and the same character of Christ, and the same scripture. We all believe in this conversation here that there is one absolute truth revealed through scripture, but we have to be willing to accept that there are inumerable applications of that truth dependant upon our spiritual, familial, theological, social etc... contexts. In the same way there is one way to God through Christ (I am the way, the truth and the life), but there are a billion ways to Christ as different as each person who places faith in Christ.

I apologize for being long winded and preachy (a weakness of mine) and really I just wanted to contribute 2 cents to the conversation (vanity, another weakness), but I pray we remember the grace that's been extended to us.
 

I think the thing that most disappoints me about these comments are that there seems to be so little flexibility in thought from some who have commented. Have I changed my ideas about what (WHO) Church is and what Christianity is from conversations with brothers and sisters? Absolutely. Has it always been easy? Nope. I'm a younger member of a Grace Brethren Church. I don't pretend to know everything- I have a lot of life yet to live. But what really makes me angry is when I see brothers refusing to process what others have brought up for discussion. Come on! If your understanding of Christianity is so rigid that you have not learned and grown and adjusted your views, then I would postulate that you haven't learned. I so desperately want to see the Grace Brethren Church interact with people my age, but I'm embarrassed by those who choose to cut down their brothers with black-and-white thinking. I think so many Christians in the United States don't give a rip about those who are starving. It's not sinful to have money, but selfishness is ingrained in our US churches. Bono is doing the right thing by doing SOMETHING. SOMETHING is better than nothing and a potluck. Don't we all sin? Why do we all get to sit in on Bono's status as a believer or non-believer simply because he's famous? Last time I checked we had sinners in every pulpit. Why do we need to classify his sins as worse than the gossiping and selfishness and forgetting of widows and orphans we do. Last time I checked, God said he hated that.